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Environment & Energy

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hatrack

(63,397 posts)
Sat Aug 2, 2025, 08:19 AM Aug 2

Self-Termination The Likely Outcome For "Goliath" Societies Where Inequality Reigns - Think Rome, Han China, And Us [View all]

We can’t put a date on Doomsday, but by looking at the 5,000 years of [civilisation], we can understand the trajectories we face today – and self-termination is most likely,” says Dr Luke Kemp at the Centre for the Study of Existential Risk at the University of Cambridge. “I’m pessimistic about the future,” he says. “But I’m optimistic about people.” Kemp’s new book covers the rise and collapse of more than 400 societies over 5,000 years and took seven years to write. The lessons he has drawn are often striking: people are fundamentally egalitarian but are led to collapses by enriched, status-obsessed elites, while past collapses often improved the lives of ordinary citizens.

EDIT

All Goliaths, however, contain the seeds of their own demise, he says: “They are cursed and this is because of inequality.” Inequality does not arise because all people are greedy. They are not, he says. The Khoisan peoples in southern Africa, for example, shared and preserved common lands for thousands of years despite the temptation to grab more. Instead, it is the few people high in the dark triad who fall into races for resources, arms and status, he says. “Then as elites extract more wealth from the people and the land, they make societies more fragile, leading to infighting, corruption, immiseration of the masses, less healthy people, overexpansion, environmental degradation and poor decision making by a small oligarchy. The hollowed-out shell of a society is eventually cracked asunder by shocks such as disease, war or climate change.”

History shows that increasing wealth inequality consistently precedes collapse, says Kemp, from the Classical Lowland Maya to the Han dynasty in China and the Western Roman empire. He also points out that for the citizens of early rapacious regimes, collapse often improved their lives because they were freed from domination and taxation and returned to farming. “After the fall of Rome, people actually got taller and healthier,” he says.

Collapses in the past were at a regional level and often beneficial for most people, but collapse today would be global and disastrous for all. “Today, we don’t have regional empires so much as we have one single, interconnected global Goliath. All our societies act within one single global economic system – capitalism,” Kemp says.

EDIT

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/aug/02/self-termination-history-and-future-of-societal-collapse

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Important studies on this topic include "The Breakdown of Nations" by Leopold Kohr (1952), dedl67 Aug 2 #1
MOST interesting. This whole thread is, most definitely. Small really IS beautiful. calimary Aug 2 #15
Ah yes, the predictions of Karl Marx Farmer-Rick Aug 2 #2
It's ironic, the people that trash Marx the most are those most fervently working Uncle Joe Aug 2 #7
Just an outside the US perspective Uncle Joe jfz9580m Aug 2 #10
Marx did not advocate Marxism Farmer-Rick Aug 2 #14
Kick. Great stuff & reading rec. Thanks for posting! bronxiteforever Aug 2 #3
Supposedly celebrity chefs are an early sign of collapse nuxvomica Aug 2 #4
That's been going on for years NJCher Aug 2 #6
Capitalism is an outdated system NJCher Aug 2 #5
I get emails from a credit card company asking me to rate their automated phone payment system . . . hatrack Aug 2 #9
I think NJCher Aug 2 #12
I don't agree with this: "I'm optimistic about people." live love laugh Aug 2 #8
Yeah I gotta agree jfz9580m Aug 2 #11
Thank you! It's edifying to read of a sweeping perspective & difference between past regional & current global factors, ancianita Aug 2 #13
woo hoo! NJCher Aug 2 #16
Well, yes, extreme inequality tends to lead to revolutions, "Let them eat cake!" OKIsItJustMe Aug 2 #17
Must be a new version of history Progressive dog Aug 2 #18
"Reality TV" is our Circus ThoughtCriminal Aug 2 #19
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