Environment & Energy
Related: About this forumSelf-Termination The Likely Outcome For "Goliath" Societies Where Inequality Reigns - Think Rome, Han China, And Us
We cant put a date on Doomsday, but by looking at the 5,000 years of [civilisation], we can understand the trajectories we face today and self-termination is most likely, says Dr Luke Kemp at the Centre for the Study of Existential Risk at the University of Cambridge. Im pessimistic about the future, he says. But Im optimistic about people. Kemps new book covers the rise and collapse of more than 400 societies over 5,000 years and took seven years to write. The lessons he has drawn are often striking: people are fundamentally egalitarian but are led to collapses by enriched, status-obsessed elites, while past collapses often improved the lives of ordinary citizens.
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All Goliaths, however, contain the seeds of their own demise, he says: They are cursed and this is because of inequality. Inequality does not arise because all people are greedy. They are not, he says. The Khoisan peoples in southern Africa, for example, shared and preserved common lands for thousands of years despite the temptation to grab more. Instead, it is the few people high in the dark triad who fall into races for resources, arms and status, he says. Then as elites extract more wealth from the people and the land, they make societies more fragile, leading to infighting, corruption, immiseration of the masses, less healthy people, overexpansion, environmental degradation and poor decision making by a small oligarchy. The hollowed-out shell of a society is eventually cracked asunder by shocks such as disease, war or climate change.
History shows that increasing wealth inequality consistently precedes collapse, says Kemp, from the Classical Lowland Maya to the Han dynasty in China and the Western Roman empire. He also points out that for the citizens of early rapacious regimes, collapse often improved their lives because they were freed from domination and taxation and returned to farming. After the fall of Rome, people actually got taller and healthier, he says.
Collapses in the past were at a regional level and often beneficial for most people, but collapse today would be global and disastrous for all. Today, we dont have regional empires so much as we have one single, interconnected global Goliath. All our societies act within one single global economic system capitalism, Kemp says.
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https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/aug/02/self-termination-history-and-future-of-societal-collapse

dedl67
(80 posts)and, following Kohr's ideas, Small Is Beautiful by E. F. Schumaker (1973). Kohrs study illustrates many cases through history where what he terms the cancerous disease of oversize has led to breakdown of society. While Kohr has had many critics, his ideas are worth considering.
calimary
(87,517 posts)Maybe because its more simple, more achievable, and/or less daunting?
GREAT and MOST thought-provoking read, hatrack. Thanks!
Farmer-Rick
(11,958 posts)Have come to pass. He saw the inequality trajectory of capitalism. Much like feudalism and slave economies, capitalism always produces a handful of hugely rich families and millions of desperately poor families.
Uncle Joe
(62,936 posts)to bring about his predictions.
jfz9580m
(15,822 posts)I live in one of the few Marxist states in The global south..
The actual implementation of their version of Marxism looks indistinguishable from capitalism. Crony business partners with whom they destroy the environment and exploit data mining, jump on fads like AI.
I have never read about Marxism or capitalism or taken a class on them. But the deregulated and corruption filled end result seems pretty similar.
Further they treat workers like shit. The garbage workers here went on strike protesting meagre pay, but no dice sadly. I am rooting for them-mostly poor women.
Meanwhile our moron of a cm boasts pathetic youth festivals, glorifies meat consumption and yada yada.
Its a junk-like/bullshit or extractive/rapacious environment destroying style of cancer like growth, while making perfunctory and clearly insincere throwaway remarks about climate change.
He fired the one competent and respectable woman in his administration because she was too popular I guess. I liked her. If she was representative, I would have a different view. She was a schoolteacher. I dont think this guy is particularly educated, but he knows how to wheel and deal.
They ignored an environmental scientists report warning of overdevelopment in some ecologically sensitive parts of the state. It was watered down and the recommendations ignored, leading to landslides and loss of life (which they dismissed).
They are generally misogynistic boys will be boys harassers to boot.
I dont want to say which state to protect my privacy and I lightly skewed the exact details a bit.
And they are Marxists. If this is Marxism, I cant see that its much better.
Id take an Elizabeth Warren or Claudia Sheinbaum any day over creeps like these. Not sure what Sheinbaum identifies as though her dad was in a communist party.
Just offering an outside US perspective. The label doesnt matter with this kind of implementation.
I guess China is similar.
Farmer-Rick
(11,958 posts)He felt it was more like spin than a real program.
He wrote in a letter "What is certain is that I myself am not a Marxist."
It was in response to French Marxists going around and sloganeering, not having a good theoretical basis for what they were purporting to have supported.
If on the other hand, you are talking about Socialism, he supported that more. Though he really thought Communism was the best but not the kind of Communism practiced in the USSR.
It seems to me that the problems with most types of Socialism and Communism implemented so far have had one big failure. They failed to give control (of the means of production) to the workers.
In the USSR the control was handed over to political leaders who acted as badly as capitalists. Marx thought the people would vote out anyone who failed to use that control fairly and equally. Well you' ve seen how the voting public can be easily manipulated. Especially if you have Musk controlled voting machines.
In China, they handed the control to one political party who then gave it to a dictatorial leader.
I don't think democracy is compatible with capitalism. Anytime you allow large amounts of wealth to be controlled by a handful of people you run into serious problems. Because in capitalism money is power and then the handful takeover.
What we need is a more democratic form of economics. Capitalism is not the answer even when combined with socialism, democracy or Marxism.
bronxiteforever
(10,716 posts)nuxvomica
(13,575 posts)When an empire is in it's last stage, one of the signs is that good cooks become celebrated. We'll need to watch for that sign.
NJCher
(41,164 posts)Emeril.
Jacques Pepin.
So many more.
NJCher
(41,164 posts)I will be finding this book for sure. Getting it read is another story. A friend recently told me about a theorist who maintains it is when societies get overly complex that they fall.
Notice how nothing is simple anymore. You cannot just call someone at a company and solve a complaint. They make you attempt to solve it through endless phone messages, apps, asynchronous messages with complaint tickets, etc.
Every single little transaction and they ask you to rate them.
Quit a service? You are subjected to an endless campaign to get you to re-join.
Notice how the business establishment has shifted their former responsibility onto your time.
hatrack
(63,395 posts)Seriously,
I will be laughing at this remark all day long!
live love laugh
(15,755 posts)Ive seen too much ignorance and stupidity.
jfz9580m
(15,822 posts)Last edited Sun Aug 3, 2025, 04:16 PM - Edit history (4)
And selfish/self-deceptive..its wearying to see the tail-chasing self-deceiving delusions..
I mean Carlin had a point:
https://thehumanist.com/magazine/september-october-2015/features/strange-bedfellows-misanthropy-humanism-the-many-faces-of-george-carlin
The problem is its too damn time-consuming to sit around looking into the (dead) eyes of every creep and seeing the universe.
That would be all you do anymore, that too at the rate at which this prolifically reproducing species pops people out.
Which I think is what creeps like the social media creeps want.
ancianita
(41,446 posts)which is why I can agree that he trusts humans to outlast even any latest collapse. Because we have more ways and means to extend help for those who will need it. I'm definitely reading his book.
I bought the audiobook!
OKIsItJustMe
(21,640 posts)However, I think that the climate crisis will amplify this tremendously!
Progressive dog
(7,520 posts)They used to call the centuries after Rome fell"The Dark Ages." The people who weren't killed by the Mongols or the Huns were not living in some new paradise.
Rome did subsidize food for it's citizens.
If the author knows of any socialist governments that were in existence for as long as Rome, he should put it in his story.
ThoughtCriminal
(14,624 posts)All Circus. No Bread.