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hatrack

(63,395 posts)
Sat Aug 2, 2025, 08:19 AM Aug 2

Self-Termination The Likely Outcome For "Goliath" Societies Where Inequality Reigns - Think Rome, Han China, And Us

We can’t put a date on Doomsday, but by looking at the 5,000 years of [civilisation], we can understand the trajectories we face today – and self-termination is most likely,” says Dr Luke Kemp at the Centre for the Study of Existential Risk at the University of Cambridge. “I’m pessimistic about the future,” he says. “But I’m optimistic about people.” Kemp’s new book covers the rise and collapse of more than 400 societies over 5,000 years and took seven years to write. The lessons he has drawn are often striking: people are fundamentally egalitarian but are led to collapses by enriched, status-obsessed elites, while past collapses often improved the lives of ordinary citizens.

EDIT

All Goliaths, however, contain the seeds of their own demise, he says: “They are cursed and this is because of inequality.” Inequality does not arise because all people are greedy. They are not, he says. The Khoisan peoples in southern Africa, for example, shared and preserved common lands for thousands of years despite the temptation to grab more. Instead, it is the few people high in the dark triad who fall into races for resources, arms and status, he says. “Then as elites extract more wealth from the people and the land, they make societies more fragile, leading to infighting, corruption, immiseration of the masses, less healthy people, overexpansion, environmental degradation and poor decision making by a small oligarchy. The hollowed-out shell of a society is eventually cracked asunder by shocks such as disease, war or climate change.”

History shows that increasing wealth inequality consistently precedes collapse, says Kemp, from the Classical Lowland Maya to the Han dynasty in China and the Western Roman empire. He also points out that for the citizens of early rapacious regimes, collapse often improved their lives because they were freed from domination and taxation and returned to farming. “After the fall of Rome, people actually got taller and healthier,” he says.

Collapses in the past were at a regional level and often beneficial for most people, but collapse today would be global and disastrous for all. “Today, we don’t have regional empires so much as we have one single, interconnected global Goliath. All our societies act within one single global economic system – capitalism,” Kemp says.

EDIT

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/aug/02/self-termination-history-and-future-of-societal-collapse

19 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Self-Termination The Likely Outcome For "Goliath" Societies Where Inequality Reigns - Think Rome, Han China, And Us (Original Post) hatrack Aug 2 OP
Important studies on this topic include "The Breakdown of Nations" by Leopold Kohr (1952), dedl67 Aug 2 #1
MOST interesting. This whole thread is, most definitely. Small really IS beautiful. calimary Aug 2 #15
Ah yes, the predictions of Karl Marx Farmer-Rick Aug 2 #2
It's ironic, the people that trash Marx the most are those most fervently working Uncle Joe Aug 2 #7
Just an outside the US perspective Uncle Joe jfz9580m Aug 2 #10
Marx did not advocate Marxism Farmer-Rick Aug 2 #14
Kick. Great stuff & reading rec. Thanks for posting! bronxiteforever Aug 2 #3
Supposedly celebrity chefs are an early sign of collapse nuxvomica Aug 2 #4
That's been going on for years NJCher Aug 2 #6
Capitalism is an outdated system NJCher Aug 2 #5
I get emails from a credit card company asking me to rate their automated phone payment system . . . hatrack Aug 2 #9
I think NJCher Aug 2 #12
I don't agree with this: "I'm optimistic about people." live love laugh Aug 2 #8
Yeah I gotta agree jfz9580m Aug 2 #11
Thank you! It's edifying to read of a sweeping perspective & difference between past regional & current global factors, ancianita Aug 2 #13
woo hoo! NJCher Aug 2 #16
Well, yes, extreme inequality tends to lead to revolutions, "Let them eat cake!" OKIsItJustMe Aug 2 #17
Must be a new version of history Progressive dog Aug 2 #18
"Reality TV" is our Circus ThoughtCriminal Aug 2 #19

dedl67

(80 posts)
1. Important studies on this topic include "The Breakdown of Nations" by Leopold Kohr (1952),
Sat Aug 2, 2025, 09:01 AM
Aug 2

and, following Kohr's ideas, “Small Is Beautiful” by E. F. Schumaker (1973). Kohr’s study illustrates many cases through history where what he terms the ‘cancerous disease of oversize’ has led to breakdown of society. While Kohr has had many critics, his ideas are worth considering.

calimary

(87,517 posts)
15. MOST interesting. This whole thread is, most definitely. Small really IS beautiful.
Sat Aug 2, 2025, 11:45 AM
Aug 2

Maybe because it’s more simple, more achievable, and/or less daunting?

GREAT and MOST thought-provoking read, hatrack. Thanks!

Farmer-Rick

(11,958 posts)
2. Ah yes, the predictions of Karl Marx
Sat Aug 2, 2025, 10:00 AM
Aug 2

Have come to pass. He saw the inequality trajectory of capitalism. Much like feudalism and slave economies, capitalism always produces a handful of hugely rich families and millions of desperately poor families.

Uncle Joe

(62,936 posts)
7. It's ironic, the people that trash Marx the most are those most fervently working
Sat Aug 2, 2025, 10:31 AM
Aug 2

to bring about his predictions.

jfz9580m

(15,822 posts)
10. Just an outside the US perspective Uncle Joe
Sat Aug 2, 2025, 10:57 AM
Aug 2

I live in one of the few Marxist states in The global south..

The actual implementation of their version of Marxism looks indistinguishable from capitalism. Crony business partners with whom they destroy the environment and exploit data mining, jump on fads like AI.

I have never read about Marxism or capitalism or taken a class on them. But the deregulated and corruption filled end result seems pretty similar.

Further they treat workers like shit. The garbage workers here went on strike protesting meagre pay, but no dice sadly. I am rooting for them-mostly poor women.
Meanwhile our moron of a cm boasts pathetic “youth festivals”, glorifies meat consumption and yada yada.
It’s a junk-like/bullshit or extractive/rapacious environment destroying style of cancer like growth, while making perfunctory and clearly insincere throwaway remarks about climate change.

He fired the one competent and respectable woman in his administration because she was too popular I guess. I liked her. If she was representative, I would have a different view. She was a schoolteacher. I don’t think this guy is particularly educated, but he knows how to wheel and deal.

They ignored an environmental scientist’s report warning of overdevelopment in some ecologically sensitive parts of the state. It was watered down and the recommendations ignored, leading to landslides and loss of life (which they dismissed).

They are generally misogynistic “boys will be boys” harassers to boot.

I don’t want to say which state to protect my privacy and I lightly skewed the exact details a bit.

And they are Marxists. If this is Marxism, I can’t see that it’s much better.

I’d take an Elizabeth Warren or Claudia Sheinbaum any day over creeps like these. Not sure what Sheinbaum identifies as though her dad was in a communist party.

Just offering an outside US perspective. The label doesn’t matter with this kind of implementation.

I guess China is similar.

Farmer-Rick

(11,958 posts)
14. Marx did not advocate Marxism
Sat Aug 2, 2025, 11:44 AM
Aug 2

He felt it was more like spin than a real program.

He wrote in a letter "What is certain is that I myself am not a Marxist."

It was in response to French Marxists going around and sloganeering, not having a good theoretical basis for what they were purporting to have supported.

If on the other hand, you are talking about Socialism, he supported that more. Though he really thought Communism was the best but not the kind of Communism practiced in the USSR.

It seems to me that the problems with most types of Socialism and Communism implemented so far have had one big failure. They failed to give control (of the means of production) to the workers.

In the USSR the control was handed over to political leaders who acted as badly as capitalists. Marx thought the people would vote out anyone who failed to use that control fairly and equally. Well you' ve seen how the voting public can be easily manipulated. Especially if you have Musk controlled voting machines.

In China, they handed the control to one political party who then gave it to a dictatorial leader.

I don't think democracy is compatible with capitalism. Anytime you allow large amounts of wealth to be controlled by a handful of people you run into serious problems. Because in capitalism money is power and then the handful takeover.

What we need is a more democratic form of economics. Capitalism is not the answer even when combined with socialism, democracy or Marxism.

nuxvomica

(13,575 posts)
4. Supposedly celebrity chefs are an early sign of collapse
Sat Aug 2, 2025, 10:16 AM
Aug 2

When an empire is in it's last stage, one of the signs is that good cooks become celebrated. We'll need to watch for that sign.

NJCher

(41,164 posts)
5. Capitalism is an outdated system
Sat Aug 2, 2025, 10:16 AM
Aug 2
collapse of more than 400 societies over 5,000 years and took seven years to write.

I will be finding this book for sure. Getting it read is another story. A friend recently told me about a theorist who maintains it is when societies get overly complex that they fall.

Notice how nothing is simple anymore. You cannot just call someone at a company and solve a complaint. They make you attempt to solve it through endless phone messages, apps, asynchronous messages with complaint tickets, etc.

Every single little transaction and they ask you to rate them.

Quit a service? You are subjected to an endless campaign to get you to re-join.

Notice how the business establishment has shifted their former responsibility onto your time.

hatrack

(63,395 posts)
9. I get emails from a credit card company asking me to rate their automated phone payment system . . .
Sat Aug 2, 2025, 10:54 AM
Aug 2

Seriously,

live love laugh

(15,755 posts)
8. I don't agree with this: "I'm optimistic about people."
Sat Aug 2, 2025, 10:51 AM
Aug 2

I’ve seen too much ignorance and stupidity.

jfz9580m

(15,822 posts)
11. Yeah I gotta agree
Sat Aug 2, 2025, 11:03 AM
Aug 2

Last edited Sun Aug 3, 2025, 04:16 PM - Edit history (4)

And selfish/self-deceptive..it’s wearying to see the tail-chasing self-deceiving delusions..

I mean Carlin had a point:
https://thehumanist.com/magazine/september-october-2015/features/strange-bedfellows-misanthropy-humanism-the-many-faces-of-george-carlin

Carlin further explained his position: “I dislike and despise groups of people but I love individuals. Every person you look at; you can see the universe in their eyes, if you’re really looking.”


The problem is it’s too damn time-consuming to sit around looking into the (dead) eyes of every creep and seeing the universe.
That would be all you do anymore, that too at the rate at which this prolifically reproducing species pops people out.

Which I think is what creeps like the social media creeps want.

ancianita

(41,446 posts)
13. Thank you! It's edifying to read of a sweeping perspective & difference between past regional & current global factors,
Sat Aug 2, 2025, 11:25 AM
Aug 2

which is why I can agree that he trusts humans to outlast even any latest collapse. Because we have more ways and means to extend help for those who will need it. I'm definitely reading his book.

OKIsItJustMe

(21,640 posts)
17. Well, yes, extreme inequality tends to lead to revolutions, "Let them eat cake!"
Sat Aug 2, 2025, 02:50 PM
Aug 2

However, I think that the climate crisis will amplify this tremendously!

Progressive dog

(7,520 posts)
18. Must be a new version of history
Sat Aug 2, 2025, 05:55 PM
Aug 2

They used to call the centuries after Rome fell"The Dark Ages." The people who weren't killed by the Mongols or the Huns were not living in some new paradise.
Rome did subsidize food for it's citizens.
If the author knows of any socialist governments that were in existence for as long as Rome, he should put it in his story.

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