I think if religious people had thier way, we'd extend tolerance and love to Gays in this country.

And those few that may want to see gays executed, it's hard for me to consider them religous.

:P

that no mention of religion can pass here without a herd of hyperbolic, hair-pulling banshees descending upon said thread to remind us all that religion is bad. It's downright Pavlovian.

Or does tolerance only include "we'll let you do what you like without chopping off your head, but we don't feel that we need to extend legal rights to you"

For my own faith, that includes the right to marry the person of your choice (subject to the usual stuff involving age and consent), adopt kids and so on. Essentially, it amounts to placing no more constraints on your happiness than are absolutely necessary.

church support the right of gays including the right to marry. As with any organization there are a few dimwits but most people are sane.

And in this matter more compassionate than they've been painted here.

Not a theocracy.

so let me get this right, ONLY AMERICAN Religous people are good people?

not in countries like Ahmadinejad's Iran. Just to clarify.

nice one!!!

:eyes:

But if you want to discuss treatment of gays in countries like Ahmadinejad's Iran, feel free. :)

like Ahmadinejad's Iran.

folk?

Post 13, I believe.

BTW, you do such a terrible job of debating here that you help the opposite cause.

Maybe it allows some personal venting, but it does nothing to convince or persuade.

Lets me know your ideal regime would be no better, and would probably burn the believers at the stake and do everything to them that you claim they do to you.

:eyes:

Whee!

Good catch! :thumbsup:

Like these people, holding a candlelight vigil in sympathy for the victims of 9/11?

NOT be allowed a religious reason?

That doesn't negate thier tolerance and love of gays.

Many Democrats oppose same-sex marriage, BTW.

And sorry, allowing gays to LEGALLY marry has nothing to do with religion. Hence, you cannot be "tolerant" and "loving" of gays and vote against their right to LEGALLY marry. That doesn't mean your church has to marry them. Just the courts.

.. just try and be open minded for a minute.

Suppose you worship God according to a particular Christian understanding. God commands you to treat everybody with a certain amount of dignity and respect. But suppose also that God says that certain sexual acts are wrong and/or marriage is only between one man and one woman. Can you not see some nuance there? A Christian may believe both that marriage is between only 1 man and one woman, and also that gays should not be the target of violence. It might seem contradictory, but that is because you do not share their faith. Religion is ultimately about a leap of faith, the idea that there is some kind of revealed truth apart from natural observation. Some people can't deal with that, I guess...

Does that mean we should make law on that belief? There is a difference between LEGAL and MORAL. If you think that gays shouldn't marry, fine. Don't get married if you are gay! However, your beliefs have NOTHING to do with the law.

should never impact their positions on policy. I think that would be very unfair to religious people.

You say, "A Christian may believe ... that marriage is between only 1 man and one woman." But that person would be wrong. Same-sex couples are already getting married in a number of places around the world.

And no gods have come forward to object.

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umm sure...

to go from banning gay marriage to executing gays.

Please see the grey in this. Not everything is black and white. Just becaues you personally don't agree with somebody, doesn't make them as evil whatever bogieman you are thinking of.

for gays. That entails more than just "not executing them".

I guess it depends on what you mean by "love and toleance". See my other response above.

as long as we're not executed then - maybe a little spanking then...a tap on the butt - nice round butts

how about nipples? is squeezing nipples OK?...

at least executions are out - for now - ...

what about prison? is prison SEX - ok - SEX - what kinda PUNISHMENT should we do - SEX - ...

jailsex mansexsheepanimals WHIPS AND CHAINS!!!

all that girlyboymansex butchdyke motorcycleleatherchaps HARNESSES...!!!!

all it needs is a "gentle" push towards more and more brutality...

if it weren't for all that in-your-face girlyboy butchdyke kissy thingy in public - icky - THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN!!! HELP!!! SAVE US FROM BECOMMING GAY!!!...

I'm all better now - lost it for a moment...girlyboymansex butchdykemotorcycles leatherchaps...DISCOBALLS!!!! auuughhhh!!!!

Are they voting for ENDA (employment non discrimination act)?

Are they voting for Hate Crimes legislation?

Are they voting in fovor of gay marriage?

The Episcopalians are among the most tolerant (arguably UNinterested)
bunch of religionists in this country, and after making an admirable
stab at inclusion, are back-peddling as fast as they can.

Simple observation is not "painting", you know....

ALL people are good, "by and large".

There has been more death, torture and bigotry done at the hands of 'religious' people than at the hands of all the atheists in the history of the world.

That pretty much evens that out.

Cruelty is a human trait; it exists apart from religion.

That seems to be the obvious parallel you're drawing. Unless, of course, you meant to say that "All people are good people, by and large."

Torquemada may disagree. :rofl:

So either religious people hate gays, or remain prefer to remain silent and let extremists speak for them.

n/t

Everyone I have ever known who is deeply spiritual, is also loving, tolerant, and compaasionate.

Religion can exist without spirituality and vice versa.

I was pointing out that my experience and perception of religous people is they are tolerant and loving of gays.

and i can prove it to you by the number of churces, temples, mosques and synagogues willing to perform same sex weddings.

is distinct from legal acceptance of gay marriage.

and very few churches, mosques and temples are willign to do that.

But it doesn't mean they don't tolerate and love gays. Most do.

:eyes:

Out of sheer curiosity, which religions, with self-described religious congregants, are tolerant and loving of gays?

as long as we all KEEP OUR HANDS OUT IN THE OPEN and DON'T TOUCH EACH OTHER - heaven forbid...

at least we're not being executed - just called SINNERS - SEX - SINNERS! REPENT! but I love the gays...and am so TOLERANT of them all - let's just PUT THEM IN A SPECIAL PLACE - for their own "protection" you know - we won't EXECUTE them afte all - we're TOLERANT you see...SEX...

:thumbsup:

seems to draw a false distinction between religious people and gays.

blindsided by the over-sensitive wanna-be-bashers here. Some people don't know how to tell who their friends really are.

Is your implication that religious people DON'T have their way, right now?

And if they don't, who does???

Please tell me you're not floating that tired old bullshit saw about how people who are religious are inherently more moral than people who aren't.

And that influence is felt in the denial of gayy marriage for example. But they don't have absolute control.

more moral than non-religious people?

Also, the thread this is presumably written in response to clearly contains the phrase "Religious Right". We are constantly hectored to remember that the Religious Right does not speak for all religious people, but the phrasing of your OP seems to say that they do- because the implication is that criticism of the "Religious Right" = criticism of the "Religious".

Get it?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

got it. Thanks for clearing that up.

Sid

Sid

Edit spelling

but I am more spiritual than 95% of people I know. By not relying on a deity to tell me what to think, I have had to find my own way on this earth. I have come to realize the connection between us all and how what I do to one has a ripple effect on many. I know that I may like to lash out at someone who has made me mad but if I do they may get upset and take it out on those around them. Thus my actions can effect those who I do not even know. Only a psychopath would want to purposely hurt those they do not know and therefore I live by the motto of 'do no harm'.

Living this way has also taught me that I have to concentrate on myself and my own actions. Trying to take away the right of gays to be in a legal committed loving relationship means me trying to have control over them and I am not a deity so I have no right to try and control them. Live and let live. The world has enough violence, it is down a few quarts on love. Why would we want to try and inhibit such a positive thing?

Would you say that it's a higher or lower percentage than Christians?

We're the ones leading the charge to ban gay marriage, prevent ENDA from passing, eradicate what gay rights do exist and even "turn gays straight" via psychologically and spiritually harmful programs (or worse). I hate those freaking atheists!

How does one define that? Because many people who call themselves religious want to pass laws that discriminate against gays.

if you really believe that.

...he thinks he's kidding US.

Or, more likely, he knows damn well that
he's not fooling anyone, but gets a kick
out of this type of "just-inside-the-rules"
bullshit post. Lord knows, it's his favorite
type.

like...you're not normal, but we tolerate your existence?

we are loving and tolerating.

There are many things I'll tolerate, and I'm sure you would too, that you or I wouldn't engage in or condone. Some people merely tolerate NASCAR, for instance (to bring up a favorite idle whipping boy).

Outstanding.

good one.

they TOLERATE us - like a spoiled child yelling and screaming in public - or dog fucking on the sidewalk IN PLAIN SIGHT - SEX!!!

EEEEKKKK!!!

They can't stop thinking of what we're all DOING - SEX - all the time - SEX - EVERYWHERE SEX - with EACH OTHER!

SEX!!!!!

But they are willing to "tolerate" us all!!!

SEX!!!!!

I'm saying relative to Iran, the US tolerates gays, it has for a long, long time. Yes, there is homophobia in the US and places where it might not be as safe as being straight, but on the whole people in the US are pretty tolerant, even in deep red states. Maybe they don't buy into every bit of gay rights but that is a far cry from saying "OMG they'd execute people in a minute if they could".

now we are a marketing ploy?


:eyes:

But I'm very loving and tolerant of them. O8) A black guy once sat across the bus from me and I didn't lynch 'em or nuthin'

:hi:

:hi:

but I'm sure you already know that. Nobody has said that it is a widespread belief that gays should be denied the vote.

And besides... whites and blacks don't share the same stuff. I don't use Activator... and according to Chris Rock, black people don't use mayonnaise. LOL

That's really NICE of you!!!

Why can't people see that!!!

SEX!!!!


MANONMAN SEX!!!

GIRLSKISSINGIRLSANDTOUCHINGEACHOTHER - THAT'S HOT!!!!!

eeeeekkkkkk!!!!

This is somewhat off track, but I've always wondered why folks just can't see gay marriage as no different than any other marriage, performed in whatever setting. It shouldn't make any difference. There is also all that money to be made from weddings....

iI's also interesting that when I was younger, no one wanted to get married - my straight friends, my gay friends and my bi friends. People thought marriage was very uncool.

And now it is the focus of so much anger and frustration.

as any other person so there ain't no "They don't buy into every bit of gay rights".

:hi:

this entire thread borders on the insane.

a future in the ad game!
this thread is so wrong on so many levels.

I believe this is the same way the OP is using it.

Once again, I am completely not surprised at what I read here.

:thumbsup: i knew there was a good reason i endorsed you

I'm gonna grab a slice of pizza.:party:

speaking about tolerance?

I hope it can be avoided. A more level approach, like that of Hillary or Obama, is what's needed.

:eyes:

Something I've learned: The mediocre man may be made better or worse by faith but the asshole will always practice his faith in a way that allows him to remain an asshole.

My own faith (Luciferianism) has no problem with gay people (full disclosure: I am personally bisexual). I'm an ordained minister and I'll happily marry any two people who want to be married. Might not be legal (yet although here in Britain, it's not legal for gay or straight people until you fill in the paperwork) but I'll happily perform the ceremony, do naming ceremonies for gay couples and their kids, all the usual functions of a minister.

and love and tolerance of those different than themselves.

and incase you are completely dense :sarcasm:

I mean, if their idea of tolerance is the "ex-gay" movement, where gay and lesbian people are "sick" and need to be "cured" of their homosexuality, which is what a lot of religious people desire, then that's a weird idea of "tolerance and love"

Read again.

and slowly work your way down.

here i can understand why your board failed.

on the secret? :)

Thanks.

It's 'Tool Time' with the Z man! That didn't last too long, did it?

I really think you need to check the definition of tolerant.

And HELLO, there are gays killed all over the world every day by 'religious' people. I bet those guys that beat Matthew Shephard to death were good god-fearin' boys.

some of them.

The intolerance seems to be of religious people. The fundies are nuts, that is true, but the fundies aren't the only religious people.

Like any other group of people, it's not fair to judge the entire group. If you don't want it done to gays, why do it to religious people? Some gay people are religious, so where do you place them?

are winding up to do it again. Looks like "most" to me.

On the other hand, the "religious" people want to turn America into Iran.

enjoy your stay here....so sad that so many duers take your bait...

*sigh*

meanwhile, jena burns

You would have to specify WHICH religions would be "tolerant" and which wouldn't, it varies by religion, after all. I imagine if Fundamentalist Christians had their way, then GLBT people wouldn't be "seen" in society at all, the exact punishment they would have to suffer depends on specific sects who beliefs become law, but it would vary from locking them up to executing them. Not much different from Iran, to point out the obvious.

Same for most of the other 5 major world religions, IF allowed to codify religious beliefs into law. Then there are liberal religious sects who are accepting of GLBT people, and, not to put too fine a point on it, don't want a theocracy either. In fact, for some, the most important thing is equal rights for all, not whether its their religious beliefs that get accepted.

:thumbsup:

What a tolerant country! :silly:

we are just fine and dandy

Yeah, that's the ticket.

those are the people we shoudl entrust our life and well being to

Don't make me come over there and "tolerate" you!

... getting anyone to believe anything. Hard to build cred, when you don't believe in any of the things your audience does.

:popcorn:

religious or not.

NoFederales

I can't find this tolerant religion you speak of. I was raised Roman Catholic, I didn't find them very tolerant of differing points of view. My relatives are Fundamentalists, they aren't a bit tolerant of homosexuality. Which branch of Christianity is tolerant of homosexuals? If they aren't in favor of basic civil rights for gays just what do they consider tolerance and love? It's all a bunch of bullshit. I can see the day when "The Religious" will advocate the arrest of those suspected of being gay. Kind of like in Salem.

NoFederales

now THAT is the sign of a quality OP.

Sid

You know, there's nothing that Southern Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and hardcore Catholics like better than equal rights for gay people. :rofl:

I suspect that religious "tolerance" and "love" means precisely jack shit to most of the gay community. You want to make a difference to the gay community? Then make damn sure that they are afforded the same basic rights that any other HETERO individual in this country takes for granted. They are entitled to share their lives, or their bed or their finances with any consenting adult they choose-just like every heterosexual can. Make damn sure they can walk down the street without being harassed or attacked. Let them make financial and medical decisions with and for each other as they see fit without question or judgment.
My basic human rights are not dependent on the "love" and "tolerance" of the gay community,the religious community,or any other community so why should it be different for homosexuals?
Homosexuals deserve the same rights I enjoy, and not because religious people are "gracious" enough to bestow their "love" "tolerance" toward the gay community...they deserve it because they are human beings and as citizens of this country and are entitled to it-just like me. I'm sorry but it isn't enough to be "tolerated" and still be denied rights. That's just not good enough.

How many elected officials can you name who *aren't* members of a religion?

Politicians, no matter how progressive they are have to pretend to be religious. Thats why Russert asked the favorite bible quote question at the debate. I am sure there are many atheists in both parties who will not admit it because of the potential backlash.

I do, and I've lived in the south for a long time and can assure you that a lot of Southern Baptists would sooner be dragged over carpet tacks and dipped in rubbing alcohol every day for a year than knowingly do anything good for the GLBT community. The pastor of the biggest local SB megachurch thinks that there is literally no such thing as gay or lesbian people, just straight people who've been led astray by temptation (or Satan, take your pick). He also thinks homosexuality can be "cured" through counseling and prayer. I heard him say so myself.

I have a friend who goes there and she's otherwise very reasonable and has had gay and lesbian friends over the years, but last year she admitted to me that she regretted that she'd moved to this state and missed the deadline to register to vote here because she wanted to vote just so she could vote in favor of amending the state constitution to make same-sex marriage unconstitutional. The irony is, she and her current boyfriend have both been married before so neither of them is exactly a poster child for how marriage should work.

I have no doubt that all the people who attend that megachurch consider themselves good Christians, despite their pastor constantly telling them that no matter how good they are, deep down they're all a bunch of dirty sinners who are going to burn in hell for eternity unless they give their lives over to Jesus. They may even tell themselves they believe in "Hate the sin, love the sinner" but from what I've observed of the actions of people who say that, it's just a fancy way of saying, "Hate the sinner."

The attitudes of their pastor, though, complete with bashing gays and lesbians, the nonreligious, and people who are of a more logical, scientific mindset (FTR, he thinks Darwin is wrong and that the creation story of the Bible is literally true. Surprise! Or not) are among the most ignorant, vile, and benighted I've ever heard. It's hard to believe that if they attend that church regularly that their attitudes would be very much different from his.

</rant>

Edit: punctuation.

And dead on I might add.

There was another thread asserting just the opposite. My view is legitimate and just as worthy of discussion.

Blame those flaming it, not me.

that wasn't either dumb or dishonest.

Start drinking. At least that'll give you an excuse.

Engage the issue. We're all progressives here.

Yeah, and we're all trained cage fighters too.

And in many faiths there is anti guy stuff. Christianity has it over and over again throughout the old and new testaments, including one passage in leviticus that orders you to kill gay people. Don't say that people who want gay people executed aren't religious. They are probably very religious, and that is the problem. Religion leads away from freedom and tolerance. People who support homosexual rights are generally less religious and more secular.

When I was a teen I declared, in front of my Aunt and her friends, that I was atheist. Not that I was gay or bi-sexual,(I do consider myself bi-sexual) only that I was an atheist. She told my Dad I was not allowed in her house again to sleep over or even just to visit.

When I was in high school I was checking out different religions and I was very excited when my religion teacher (in an all girl Catholic school) said he would loan me a book on Buddhism. I told my Mom about this and she went to the school and reamed him and the principal out! Oh, I also got a good reaming out!

My Mom was a 'good religious woman' who sometime during my teen years decided to correct me on the right way to kiss her! I was not allowed to kiss her on the lips any more because it is 'just not done'! That left me feeling refused and rejected. There is nothing sexual about kissing your Mom on the lips. She was not even tolerant of things that could be construed to others as homosexual.

My experience with religious people (I was educated from K-12 in an all girl's Catholic school with nuns and priests teaching a lot of grades and my piano teacher was a nun as well) is that they are judgmental and phobic. They do not embrace people who are different and they definitely do not explore their own fears and try to understand them.

All you have to do is see how many states have voted down giving gays equal rights and you will see how tolerant and loving these folks are.

Then again, if they were that good and loving they would be out on the streets protesting and saying that this illegal occupation and torture is the most immoral thing in the world and it must be stopped now. Some religious people are doing this. Most are not.

:rofl:

gays are just so...icky...why do they have to flaunt if for the CHILDREN to see...stop persecuting the noble religious persons...

Don't you have to rush to post a new thread condemning MoveOn or something?!!!

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Amazing as it may be to you, there are Democrats with opinions different than yours.

We're being heard, and my take is our voices will get louder as the general approaches.

with a certain slick, devisive precision that I just don't trust.

I would love to be proved wrong. Maybe you are not a troll, only time will tell.

:nodding:

they could not fall for the bait by screeching, in the highest octave their keyboards reach, that the OP isn't true at all because religious people are bad.

I'd rather there be ignored "slick, divisive precision" than the inevitable ham-handed predictability of so many here.

what Zandor is doing with the info. he collects.

I wonder ---

And I'll take a wild guess that they are religious.

I love spiritual people, but religious people scare the hell out of me.

Not for any particular reason. I just could.

the entire history of the christian religion, the one i'm most familiar with, is of torture and death for gays who refuse to be closeted, except for a few scant decades in a few small places in all of the existence of christianity

religion profits by controlling family life and reproduction to produce more "believers" i.e. people of faith rather than logic who will fork over their time and money to the religion

anything that subverts control of the sex life and the family life is a threat to religion, if only they were honest about it

religion is not about "love," that's how they pick your pocket, it's about money like any other group of power mad old guys telling you how to think and how to screw

:rofl:

It had formed a nice dry crust and was no longer fouling the atmosphere. Now look what you've done.

you don't need to add to it

and second of all 'religious people' doesn't mean they all adhere to one common fairy sky-deity.
Not all 'religious people' want to extend tolerance to same-sex couples, but of course we're staying within the parameters of the United States, as usual for this board.
Lots of Americans aren't all that bright.

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Do you also approve of gay couples adopting?

I think you just pegged the needle. There is just no way what you say could possibly ever be true.

A few points to keep in mind when posting overly broad brushing oversimplified generalizations like you just did:

1. George W. Bush has been president for the last 6 and a half years. Trust me. The religious people ARE in charge. GLBT people are still treated as second class citizens while we are expected to pay OUR fair share of taxes for you to have YOUR rights.

2. All "religious people" are not tolerant of gay people. Period. Not even the majority of religious people are tolerant of gay people. Hence, decrees and charters that guide 99% of the major denominations strictly forbidding same sex marriage and in many cases even denying the right to attendance of said church just because someone is gay. There has been plenty of time for "religious people" to step up and do the right thing regarding gay rights, but still we wait with little to no progress. In other words, "religious people" have had their chance to treat us like equal human beings under the law, but that shit ain't happening. We still do not have equal rights.

3. Your first mistake: Your post. It implies that somehow gay people are less than and therefore in need of "religious people's" pity. The mentality of "extending tolerance" to gay people really says, "We see you as less than, but we'll let you live. How about that? Aren't we great?" One with that mentality obviously views us as inferior or somewhat less than human as compared to oneself. How about treating us as equal human beings instead? After what we go through in our lives, we deserve more respect than "tolerance" offers. We deserve a damn apology and our rights bestowed.

Spare me. Treat us as equal human beings and quit denying us our rights as equal human beings, or get the fuck out of the way. We do not need your stinking pity, nor are we asking you for your permission to be considered equal human beings and be given same said equal rights in this country.

Instead of patting yourself on the back for thinking you are oh, so, gracious and superior as to offer us some sort of secondary status, you should really think about just how disingenuous your "offer" really is. Spare us your pity and your condescending, insulting tone.

Treat us like equal human beings. We are.

Treat us like equal human beings...or get out of the way while we do what we have to do to survive on our own.

After all, you are either going to be a help or a hindrance to us while we do what we have to do to fight for our rights. If you really want us to have our rights, wake up and smell your own bullshit and change that condescending mentality. Treat us like equal human beings and quit insulting our intelligence and our dignity.

After reading and re-reading your original post in this thread, I have come to a couple of conclusions: I do not agree with your assertion and the tone of your OP is an insult to the integrity of GLBT people, who have had enough of this condescending bullshit.