I am sick of the SKY IS FALLING, the SKY IS FALLING crowd

Do I want a more robust public option? HELL YES!

However, I also know that we are getting a whole of a lot more than we could have ever imagined in 2004, 2000 and even 1992.

We need to get this bill passed, we need to lobby hard for the public option to be more robust, but I am not ready to call it dead in the water, I am not ready to say we have been sold out, I am not ready to feel like I have been betrayed.

After its passed and signed into law, we need to immediately start working on ways to make it better with amendments, rules, etc.

So many progressives and DUers are always ready to scream bloody murder for what we are not getting as opposed to celebrate what we are getting.

I know some of you will tell me I am not a true progressive, or I am willing to compromise too quickly, but I will counter that by saying there is a certain pragmatism that needs to be applied.

Don't stop fighting to make the bill better, but at the same time remember this whole "the SKY IS FALLING, the SKY IS FALLING" meme is counter productive.

I totally agree with you. Baby steps...

I agree with you! I mentioned in another post that Medicaire wasn't perfect when it passed but it has been modified and tweaked and it is working for Americans today. We have to get something passed and it does need to be now.

before he passed Medicare. This is America, progress never comes at once, it's a process, sometimes it takes decades. Whatever bill passed, it will be a huge improvement to the current situation and an excellent place to start improving it more in coming years. But this attitude of all or nothing, is childish, foolish and dangerous.

if success isn't had immedietly then it's not success. This is the mentality that is destroying America.

Welcome to DU Impik!! :hi:

falling.

The Sky was falling when bush-cheney were taking away everything and giving it to Iraq.

And thanks!

How else do we get rolled time after time when we're in the majority on issues like HCR? We're too good at seeing the bright side of losing, while our counterparts fight to their last breath to get what they want.

I remember people saying that Obama should have started out pushing for single payer and then a robust public option would have been a compromise point, however I do believe that had he started out at single payer, he would have been considered a sellout if he didn't deliver on single payer and we would still be going through this.

You say:

"However, I also know that we are getting a whole of a lot more than we could have ever imagined in 2004, 2000 and even 1992."

Damn, wndycty - this is nowhere near what progressives have imagined - or what the fucking politicians promised in 2000 and 2004 and 2008 when they wanted our money and our votes.

Not even close. That's just the way it is.

Her post details how destructive this bill is, especially in terms of letting the drug manufacturers keep drugs from going generic in a set number of years. Becuase of this bill, the drug manufacturers will get to keep their patents for absically a person's life time.

This bill is horrid. Absolutely horrid.

Do you really defend this piece of shit legislation?

And yes, I guess it is true that Obama needs some slack for being in less than ten months.

According to some Congress people, Obama didn't bother calling around to get support for Pelosi saying we needed a public option. Maybe he didn't know Congress was in session? (After all, he just was inaugurated, for pete's sake!) Or maybe he was too busy healing the sick, or walking on water.

Get real. The guy at 1600 Pennsylvannia Avenue is exactly what the Corporations want and need.

He is no friend to the average American.

taking what you get until you can get what you want, maybe in your mind McCain/Palin would have done better,
or they could have got health care pass by now.

I'm not sure that would work.

Making a profit is bad in and of itself seems to be the theme.

We'd all be unemployed without companies that operated in the black.

But health care should not be an industry in which drugs are marked up between 2,000 and 8,200 PERCENT.

Nor should health care be an industry wherein rich people decide that they NEED TO hire an accountant to help them sort through the billing. (Poorer folks have to either devote night and day to sorting through the bills or just head into bankruptcy court.)

I know one family who hired an accountant to help them sift through the bills from the wife's hospital delivery - and lo and behold, the accountant found they were being billed THREE times for their infant's circumcision...

Unfortunately, the progressives are not a majority. Heck, even if 80% of Obama voters from 2008 support something, that means most people don't support it.

And, there are too many Democrats who just plain suck. Partly because good Democrats aren't electable in places like rural Mississippi.

And there WOULD be a majority if the rest of us were ALLOWED to hear the truth by our corporate media and information *marketplace*!

but the majority does want a public option.

Heck, even the Wall Street Journal printed that. I'd think you could accept it by now.

The individual mandate does not go into effect until 2013, at which time the exchange begins to operate, with a public option as one of the choices. Only people who are uninsured are subject to the mandate, and anyone required to obtain insurance, can choose the government insurance.

The people that want a strong public option ARE IN THE MAJORITY and that's what matters.

It is a much broader social question being covered.

And I am sure it was not written as an excuse to be miserable about everything.

in moving this law (whatever it turns out being) back toward the status quo, especially with the built-in "poison-pill" components that help insure it will not be seen as successful by the population?

Will Dems ever be in a stronger position than now?

(Have not a clue what a progressive is). I think you are just fine!

Big Recommendation.

Thank you for your sanity and poise!

Every single iota of improvement in the HCR bills and national has been won by the efforts of the people you mock.

Thoughtless cheerleaders are a burden, not a help. The personality cultists are an obstacle to all reform while congratulating themselves as the embodiment of reform.

LOL

I did say keep fighting didn't I?

The people mocked haven't done anything but complain.

Supporting the bill isn't thoughtless if you think it will make progress.

This place is turning into a fucking asylum. Thanks for providing some sanity.

It's madness.

This one used to be a little more sane. I don't think that's the case any longer.

Pre-existing conditions allowed until 2013?

Essential benefits not defined until 2011

The Exchange isn't open to all small businesses until 2015.


Plenty of time for the Republicans to gut what little progress we've made.

It would've significantly exceeded the figure otherwise.

obama has publicly acknowledged that americans already pay more than other countries and get less for it. the money is there already, it just needs to be redistributed while waste is removed (like insurance companies) .

I don't see anyone saying any of these idiotic wars have to come under a certain rather arbitrary number and the health and welfare of the citizenry is a hell of a lot important that the military industrial complex's income statement.

If what we ended up with is the House version of the Public Option, or something close to it, I could live with that and we could build on that.

I am concerned about what happens in the Senate, and then what comes out of the conference bill. I am concerned of reverting back to the trigger as the only way to get reform through the Senate in its final form because of concessions forced by Lieberman and friends.

is pretty much what it always was:

House Dems unveil health care bill

House Democratic leaders unveiled a sweeping, $894 billion health care bill today they said would cover 36 million uninsured Americans -- the latest version of the health care legislation added to the mix on Capitol Hill.

The bill, which includes a government-run insurance program known as the public option and calls for new taxes on high earners, marked a significant step in President Obama's effort to expand coverage to millions of uninsured people but Democrats at the event acknowledged there is a long road ahead.

"We have listened to the American people," House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said at a campaign-style event to unveil the bill on the west steps of the U.S. Capitol.
http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/2009/10/house-dems-unveil-health-care-bill.html

mandates are for the insurance companies, not us, leaving us WORSE off then before.

I'm uninsured and self-employed. I can't imagine paying an extra $200/month for ANYTHING on a mandatory basis. It's simply not possible at this stage.

Proverbial week-by-week existence.

I am very, very concerned about this.

fecal matter is the reason we never get what we want. Until we make democrats pay for passing horse shit and selling it as if it is the greatest thing since sliced bread we will continue to be used by these corporate whores who happen to be called the democratic party. We need to send a fucking message to this party in 2010 and 2012. If you do not change we will run against you by going independent.

:kick:

Purists are so self-defeating.

In case they can wait us out.

Uh Oh.

:hide:

I'm sure of it.

it is now.

:hi:

Will it be based on the adjusted gross income or as another tax like FICA on a pay-during the year?

I am very concerned that I will need to pay another $ 400-500 a month. I don't see what else I can cut in my budget.

You're going to split the left vote and put republican majorities in Congress? How well did republican majorities with a democratic president work out last time? How well do you think it'll work out this time?

bipartisan it to death crowd and the meet them in the center right cheerleaders. Since that has been the policy for all this time and this is where it got us, forgive me if I have absolutely no faith in that side's ability to negotiate their way out of a paper bag never mind into universal healthcare.

to our country.

Tearing down the Democratic party is the one sure way to never get what you want.

And we haven't "got" anything yet. And by the looks of it whatever we do get will benefit primarily the middle class temporarily.

Like I said, This is exactly the way it has been done for 40 years, I don't expect anything remotely progressive out of neo-liberals and dlc conservatives.

Quick, let's get a HCR bill out, even if it has an opt-out provision, so we can get treatment from skyfall wounds!

"OMG WE'RE DOOMED!!! WE HAVE NO PUBLIC OPTION BECAUSE THE HOUSE WENT WITH A LESS STRONG VERSION!!!!!11one"

Some people really need to go back on their lithium...

the unemployed will never get jobs, etc.

but don't worry Durbin said they won't deal with extending benefits next week..so just starve you sky falling jobless people!:nuke: :nuke: :sarcasm:

psssssssssss for those too young to get it yet..a jobless recovery is no damn recovery at all!

follows, if there is then job growth might follow.

How long did it take to get out of the Depression? I've seen many DU posts to the effect this was as bad as or worse!

--of middle class discretionary income.

backed up by cheap snark and double speak.

yup

just shut up already and CELEBRATE whatever our elected leaders decide we're worth giving.

That waiting could take a long time.

allowed to be done in their name to be "fixed", like they promised it would be.

Oh, we'll fix NAFTA. We'll fix DADT. Honest we will

Now it's "we'll fix this shitty corporate insurance mandate, make the problem worse than it was before, NON solution, and eventually we'll get actual reform. Just be patient and wave your pom-poms"

Fuck that. And fuck the excuses. The DLC'ers and Blue Balled Cowards (let alone the Repukes) are NOT the fucking majority in this country. They are a tiny minWHOREity backed by corporate money. And it's time to stand up to these treasonous pieces of shit, and tell them, FUCK YOU, the people voted for REAL REFORM, and we DEMAND it NOW!!

...settling for MUCH LESS than what is taken for granted in every single other civilized country in the World, and THEN rationalizing it by saying "I didn't think we would get this much."

My dog is happy when a crumb falls from the dinner table.
You are too.

Purism is for Republicans. Go see where it got them.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

You are among them, it seems. That shouldn't happen on a site called "Democratic Underground."

heh.

I've concluded some people want to feel cheated and will work at it.

Some folks live to be bitter. And it's actually rather sad.

k&r

--then shitcan the whole thing and start over.

What makes you so sure that scrapping it will result in something other than nothing?

--in order to subsidize an utterly useless sector of the economy. Insurance companies provide nothing worth having other than processing claims. In all other respects they add negative value, and we are being forced to pay for it.

What you're realizing is that a lot of what is posted here has nothing to do with reality and everything to do with certain people's commitment to a dystopian, kind of crazy view of reality, in which they are constantly being "sold out" by "fat cats" rather than understanding that it's a big country and most citizens don't agree with their particular point of view.

Most members of "DemocraticUnderground" are not "small d democrats" in the sense that they can't imagine legislation being crafted that is acceptable to 50% + of the population.

:puke:

:sarcasm:

incredibly ignorant people who don't have any clue about how the political process works or what the preferences are of the majority of American voters who don't bitch about everything on DU.

the Pro-America parts of the country, bombing Iran, and oh, so many others?

Because of his rhetoric, practically calling Obama a liar and traitor.

I listened to him yesterday, then to Randi Rhodes who had a completely opposite take on the bill and wondered if they were talking about the same thing.

You're in denial.

become apparent, and then we merely CONTINUE the fight leading ultimately to single payer.

Rome wasn't built in a day.

:toast:

I usually don't even read those "sky is falling" threads. Funny how people are so absolutely sure of their position on something, so sure that what they are saying is the absolute truth. Hell, if I read too many of them, I'd have to jump off a cliff or something, crying "Woe is me! All is lost!" on the way down.

Believe me, I am far from Polly Positive, but neither am I Nelly Negative. If something isn't even finalized yet, I'm not ready to pronounce it dead. Nor am I ready to say it's the best thing since sliced bread. People who insist others do that because they do are people I don't have a lot of time for.

"You can't start from where you want to be; you have to start from where you are." ~Me~

an excellent post with an excellent point, Thanks wndycty...:thumbsup:

There is no magic pixie dust that is suddenly going to change this country into exactly what we want. It's a huge mess after being in the hands of the right for far too long.

If we want it we are going to have to fight for it. And fight for it constructively which means leaving out going into pout-rage, throwing around right wing talking points so make their job easier, and sitting out the next election because one didn't get as big of a pony as they wanted.

This is a democracy. The right knows how to game the system and demoralize the left. Even when we are winning. There are plenty of posters on this board who are not working on behalf of the left and in case you didn't know it folks, your slips are showing. Although there is some sincere concern by some on this board over some disappointing outcomes from the progressive viewpoint, there is far more insincere hand wringing posts on every possible progressive issue by the same trolls time and time again. This is for the purpose of demoralization and it works far too often.

This is not the greatest bill, but it is a damn good start. It will not be the greatest bill until the left can recognize a win when they see one and take it. Then start working for more of them.

Typically, history shows that to be a bad strategy.

Something tangentially noted in the CBO report today.

As soon as I spot them they go right to my ignore list. lol

Different strokes I guess.:shrug:

Of course, things were quite a bit different back in 1993-1994 but we're closer to SOME reform now than we got back then. It's not perfect to be sure but you can't build anything without a foundation to start from which is, I submit, where we are now and where we need to be. To be getting anything substantive in our still-too-pervasive climate of corporatist anti-government "red-baiting" rhetoric is NO small feat IMHO.

eom

Do they defend the President then? The congressional Democrats? It must be strange to be saying the same damn things they are.

"It must be strange to be saying the same damn things they are."

Republicans want an end to pointless wars they started?
Republicans want a public option as strong as possible?
Republicans want more action on Don't Ask and DOMA?
Republicans despise the influence of corporate interests in government?
etc etc etc.

I've argued with right wingers and they say some of the same things.

So when you are talking with right wingers, do you defend the Democrats?

I'm getting curious about this with seeing so much negativity on DU.

What do liberal/left people say critical of the President that RWers do? That he was born in Kenya? That he's a socialist? What? You made a claim and I'd like you to explain it.

1. They say the same thing that the President is incompetent, weak or "spineless" and can't handle the Democrats (you know the way Repukes always fall in line but the Blue Dogs or progressives won't).
2. They said the exact same things I saw on DU about his not "deserving" the Nobel Prize.
3. That the President is on TV too much.

It's not coming from the same place, but it is eerily similar.

But you're latching onto that to avoid the real question, do you defend the Dems when talking to the right wingers? The people on here being relentlessly negative about the economy and the President - are they in a cocoon where they avoid right wingers entirely? Or do they at least defend the Dems when talking to the real enemy?

First, I'm not beholden to your inquisitorial attempts at diverting this subthread away from your illogical statements. Now:

1. You either really don't get the difference or you're trying to score cheap lay-ups. Either way I'm not letting it slide without rebuttal. These criticisms are coming from COMPLETELY OPPOSITE directions. If you see two green cars pass in front of you, one going west and one east, when they pass do you think them the same? Or, if two people order the same dish and one says it's too spicy and one says it isn't spicy enough, do you call their complaints the same?

2. Again, people HERE who opposed the Nobel Prize selection cited our involvement in military belligerence. People THERE complained he got it because he went on "apology tours" et al; in other words that he was undermining the war on terror or "being soft"--these are only the same critique if you spend absolutely NO time thinking about them.

3. Really? Who says that? And if they did, what is that supposed to prove? How does it indicate any particular POLITICAL similarity between left and right critics? Incidentally, I searched the phrase on DU. All but one instance was about TV pundits saying it. I found only one instance directed at Obama from a DUer and it was in the context of wanting more progressive activity and less talk. Obviously this is NOT close to something a RWer would say.

Your attempts to convince, and to distract, are thoroughly unconvincing.

Or just avoid right wing nuts completely?

very heart of the RePUKE party !