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lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)

18. You mentioned something in another thread about labels

Sun Dec 8, 2013, 12:00 PM

Dec 2013

"Feminist" has such a broad meaning that two individuals considering themselves feminist might have nothing in common, or even consider one another enemies. So a bunch of adjectives were invented to categorize the various types of feminist; "second-wave" "radical" "separatist" etc.

The only thing they all have in common is self-perceived advocacy for women. Which, like apple pie, everyone supports.

In practice, the label is a big Kobayashi Maru - if, because of the multiple mutually-exclusive definitions of the term, you self-describe as not a feminist then it must be because you must hate women. If you self describe as a feminist (without the adjective qualifier) then someone is validated in their view that male babies should be starved or m-f transgender people are just dedicated peeping toms, or sex is oppression or the pay gap for equal work is 77 cents.

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Found on Radfem website [View all] Bonobo Dec 2013 OP

I remember back in the 70's radfems tried shitting on stay at home moms Major Nikon Dec 2013 #1

As I've maintained... opiate69 Dec 2013 #2

Reads like some sort of weird insider foreign language to me. nt rrneck Dec 2013 #3

It does not compute. TreasonousBastard Dec 2013 #4

The women shown in those photos Bonobo Dec 2013 #5

I wouldn't jump a fence to get into Lollapallooza Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #6

I once did security at the Newport Folk Festival ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2013 #9

Speaking of Bob Dylan. Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #10

Very little more sense... TreasonousBastard Dec 2013 #7

I think that's the point Major Nikon Dec 2013 #8

I know it's fun to laugh at the crazies, but what does any of this really prove? nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #11

For me, it raises a question. Bonobo Dec 2013 #12

I honestly don't know. Maybe they think those "other" feminists aren't feminist enough. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #13

Speaking of good feminist messages, here's one I saw today. Bonobo Dec 2013 #14

That is a good message RE: double standards. We're all human, we should all be treated (mostly) nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #15

As the object of their caricature-ization (?) lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #20

I agree that that kind of treatment is over-the-top and unfair. Especially when plenty of genuine nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #22

Hate is not laughable Major Nikon Dec 2013 #16

I certainly didn't mean to imply that those cited in the OP have anything to do with genuine social nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #17

Sounds a bit contradictory Major Nikon Dec 2013 #19

That is a valid point. I guess I just don't see cis-males as a socially disadvantaged group nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #23

So how would you quantify cis-females as a socially disadvantaged group? Major Nikon Dec 2013 #24

"Couldn't be more different"? How so? African-Americans (and others) have been historically nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #25

Race is generational, gender isn't Major Nikon Dec 2013 #26

We can measure racial disadvantage experienced by African or Native Americans in many ways. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #29

Far more likely to be sexually assaulted. More likely to be killed or seriously injured by domestic nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #31

Blacks experience more violent victimization than whites. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #32

So you actually think women are privileged over men in this society? Seriously? nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #33

Then you should be able to quantify your basis Major Nikon Dec 2013 #35

spluttering isn't an argument. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #36

I know it's not as simple as "all men are advantaged" and "all women are disadvantaged" nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #40

I'm seeing what I experience. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #43

Yeah, it's really not a safe (or fair) world for anyone. I'll agree with that much. n/t nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #44

"You have ample reasons" Inkfreak Dec 2013 #53

Why narrow the scope so substantially if you're not cherry picking? Major Nikon Dec 2013 #34

I guess the rebuttal would be that women are far more likely than men to be killed or nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #41

I would never claim that it isn't Major Nikon Dec 2013 #42

Things *have* changed, obviously. I just wish cultural attitudes didn't lag so far behind legal nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #45

You are still conflating gender discrimination with race discrimination Major Nikon Dec 2013 #49

Okay, maybe I exaggerated a bit. But they're certainly the loudest at least. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #51

There's also plenty of women who don't feel they have been discriminated against Major Nikon Dec 2013 #52

Again, any given experience is not necessarily universal. And yes, it *should* be about nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #54

I'm not even sure about "parity". lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #73

So you think that entirely (or at least mostly) accounts for the pay gap? Consider me skeptical... nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #75

It's not a matter of "think". It does. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #76

Interesting... I do think there's probably a good deal of truth to what you're saying. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #77

The status quo doesn't usually happen by conscious design. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #78

I think the way you just explained things is basically accurate, in a lot of respects. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #79

I agree strongly with your last sentence. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #50

It may be distinct, but it isn't the only one that matters. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #46

Like I said, cultural attitudes lagging behind legal realities. It's a significant problem no matter nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #48

The "radfems" at my university considered some of the most prominent feminists of the 20th Century Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2013 #37

"Jerking off", "jacking off", "getting your rocks off", etc. Bonobo Dec 2013 #38

Actually, if you can stomach it, I might recommend going to the source. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #47

I am considering it, thanks. nt Bonobo Dec 2013 #57

Near as I can tell... TreasonousBastard Dec 2013 #39

You mentioned something in another thread about labels lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #18

I basically agree. And I think the whole issue of who is or isn't a "real" feminist is hopelessly nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #21

You are 100% correct. For instance, I get accused of being "anti-Feminist" for criticizing Dworkin Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #27

I was imprecise. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #28

Okay. I think I'm clearer now. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #30

No transphobia? Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #55

This message was self-deleted by its author Bonobo Dec 2013 #56

Let me clarify- I don't support reading things into people's words that they haven't explicitly said Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #58

True. Sometimes a cigar IS just a cigar Bonobo Dec 2013 #59

I don't think very many are going to come out and say it Major Nikon Dec 2013 #60

Sometimes it's not that hard to see. Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #61

Is that the elephant in the room? Behind the Aegis Dec 2013 #62

Nah, this is. Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #63

Sorry, the gay just kicked up in me.... Behind the Aegis Dec 2013 #64

Blame Banksy Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #65

Spank Banksy? Behind the Aegis Dec 2013 #66

WE WOULD IF WE COULD FIND THAT NAUGHTY RASCAL! Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #67

Interesting to note; some people REALLY don't like it when certain aquatic fowl are mentioned Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #68

It must really make them quackers! Behind the Aegis Dec 2013 #69

I know, I just don't appreciate Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #70

It ruffles my feathers too. Behind the Aegis Dec 2013 #71

Struck a nerve lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #72

The pushback going on is laughable ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2013 #74

They pretend as if I am attacking Feminism and that is their biggest lie. Bonobo Dec 2013 #80

Well, there's a lot of protesting about smearing people they supposedly don't know or care about ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2013 #81

The only one I know about got the boot sometime back Major Nikon Dec 2013 #82

The cusswords used are the ones we agree upon. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #83