I referenced that publication here: A paper addressing the idea that electric cars are "green."

The paper referenced is this one: Cleaning up while Changing Gears: The Role of Battery Design, Fossil Fuel Power Plants, and Vehicle Policy for Reducing Emissions in the Transition to Electric Vehicles Matthew Bruchon, Zihao Lance Chen, and Jeremy Michalek Environmental Science & Technology 2024 58 (8), 3787-3799

A graphic from the full paper is here:



The caption:

Another graphic giving the background for the climate intensity of electric cars is this one:



Of course, the graphic refers to cars built 6 years ago, 2019, when the average concentration of the dangerous fossil fuel waste on the planet was 411.65 ppm, as opposed to 424.61 in 2024, and thus far, in 2025, from the spreadsheet I keep tracking this data on a weekly basis, 428.27 as of the week beginning 8/17/2025. From what people want me to believe is that over six years, some kind of "renewable energy" heaven has surely broken out "by 2025" although it didn't for all the dates I remember going back to my youth, "by 1980," "by 1990," by 2000," "by 2010," and "by 2020."

Something that sort of troubles me about electric cars, and indeed the car I own and drive myself, a 2024 Camry Hybrid, which replaced the 2023 Camry Hybrid that was totaled in an automobile accident when a kid ran a stop sign in front of me - thus failing to recoup the embodied energy involved in building it - is cobalt slavery. Elon Musk's African cobalt slaves sort of, um, trouble me, even if it doesn't trouble all the "green" people here talking about how battery breakthroughs will save the day.

According to the paper cited back then and above, on the PJM grid, my hybrid car was in the class of "least carbon intensive" but my personal experience with the totaled car, leads me to doubt that I am personally all that "green." In fact, I'm a hypocrite, if it makes antinukes around here happy, since I drive a car of any type while deploring the car CULTure.

Have a nice evening.

Tesla is working on what they call a million mile battery - which functionally means that the battery outlasts the car. What to do? What if you use the car as storage at home instead of junking it? How would that figure in the end of life calculations?

As some on DU, I have solar panels on my house (hoping to add more before years end). How is that taken into consideration in their calculations?

My personal data would dispute their numbers. I have a 2021 Tesla Model Y. In April of this year, my daily average electric usage was $4.28/day for my entire house (water heater and clothes dryer are gas BTW). I drive approx 200 miles / day Monday thru Friday plus about 200 miles on the weekend driving Uber/Lyft. I have a Tesla home charger running on a 50 amp circuit. almost all of my charging is at home.

Prior to getting the Tesla in Dec 2023, I drove a SUV that I bought in 2019. Uses diesel and gets around 22 mpg. In 2023 I drove almost 40k miles and spent almost $7500 on fuel. Plus oil changes every 10k miles, plus replacing an alternator and other maintenance.

Absolutely no way an ICE vehicle has less impact that an EV in my experience.

...self driving cars, so there's that.

I have no use for solar cells, either, as I also make clear. I consider them where they are, a bourgeois affectation that will be electronic waste before today's newborns finish college - if there are colleges to finish.

The referenced paper in the post I linked is a scientific publication, not a bourgeois "my story" tale of the type that shows up here regularly. Over roughly 23 years on this site, I've had loads and loads and loads of people who want to tell me about their wonderful solar cells on the roofs of their McMansions.

I'm unimpressed.

When I joined DU, the concentration of the dangerous fossil fuel waste carbon dioxide in the planetary atmosphere was 372.69 ppm. As of the last week reported at the Trends in Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide (CO2), page of the Mauna Loa CO₂ Observatory as of the week beginning August 17, 2025, the concentration was 52.97 ppm higher, 425.65 ppm. All the caterwauling about solar, wind and electric cars I've heard here has had no effect on that outcome.

One can always write a commentary to a scientific paper and submit it to a journal, but I doubt they'd accept and publish one about how many miles the author drives in his, her, or their Tesla.

Nevertheless, despite the self declared nobility of big battery owners, the planet is burning, the rate of accumulation of the fossil fuel waste in the planetary atmosphere is accelerating to rates never seen before, and the car CULTure greenwashing has done nothing to arrest this outcome.

I'm sorry to report, not that I expect apologists for the white supremacist Musk to get it, that a battery is a device that wastes primary energy, It's a law of thermodynamics, and no amount of advertisements can undo it.

I did touch on the issue of thermodynamics on batteries in a post here, regrettably (I would guess to some people who prefer Tesla ads) again with reference to a scientific publication:

Pesky Thermodynamics: The Mathematics of Wasting Energy by Storage in Li Batteries.

As for how many miles a Musk apologists drives his, her, or their fucking car, I couldn't care less.

Musk and his hyped advertisements and promotions can go fuck off, OK?

The planet's burning. Incredibly there are people who seem not to give a shit about that, some reporting on their bourgeois lifestyle. Generally they are not people capable of understanding the difference between primary energy and stored energy.

There are, one should be aware, over a billion people on this planet who lack access to improved sanitation, on whom I sometimes remark, not that I'm doing a damned thing to help them myself. Nonetheless, frankly I find them of more interest than the commute of a homeowner patting himself, herself, or themself on his, her, or their back for solar cells on his, her or their roof, in a country where fewer and fewer people can afford home ownership. I would suspect strongly that some of the people lacking access to improved sanitation are Elon's African Cobalt Slaves and are not commuting 200 miles a day.

Maybe I should apologize for feeling as I do, but it represents the true state of my personal affairs which I am unlikely to regret.

Have a nice evening, and I certainly hope you avoid too much traffic during your 200 mile a day commute.

(Greenie here.) Just like “spent” nuclear waste disposal innovation that we have been waiting for since Hiroshima? “Long term Storage”, expensive recycling for “96%” of it? Don’t worry about the other 4% plus.

Ford is leading the charge away from cobalt and opening manufacturing in the US.
Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4): LiFePO4 batteries are entirely cobalt-free and are known for their safety and long cycle life. They are increasingly used in EVs where safety and sustainability are paramount.

And don’t worry about your totaled Camry footprint. My 2011 EV has made that up for you. It’s like buying a carbon credit without the money exchange.