Environment & Energy

LetMyPeopleVote

(168,567 posts) Sat Aug 2, 2025, 01:16 PM Aug 2

On clean energy, too many Republicans appear to forget that batteries exist

GOP critics of renewable energy claim that solar and wind are useless at night and during calm skies. That’s not even close to being true.

On clean energy, too many Republicans appear to forget that batteries exist
www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddo...
— Jim's Blue ðŸŒŠðŸŒŠ Politics, ANTI Trump/Muskâ€¼ï¸âš¡âš¡8647 D647 (@jimdjimp1959.bsky.social) 2025-08-01T20:14:10.322Z

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/maddowblog/clean-energy-many-republicans-appear-forget-batteries-exist-rcna222485

A week later, Interior Secretary Doug Burgum pushed similar rhetoric during an on-air Fox Business interview.
https://bsky.app/profile/did:plc:4llrhdclvdlmmynkwsmg5tdc/post/3lvbarqhuvs2s

Link to tweet

.....There’s just one problem: Battery technology exists. As MSNBC host Catherine Rampell explained in a Washington Post column last year:

Growth in clean-electricity generation is a longer-term trend driven largely by technological improvements that have improved solar’s and wind’s cost-competitiveness. But recent policy changes, such Biden’s 2022 Inflation Reduction Act, have also accelerated development. The same forces are boosting battery development, which is helping solve intermittency problems caused by relying on wind or solar when the weather doesn’t cooperate. The Energy Information Administration recently forecast that U.S. battery storage capacity will nearly double [in 2024] alone.

If the GOP response is that battery storage technology is still in the process of advancing, that’s fine. I’ll gladly concede the point.

But as some Republicans seem inclined to pretend that batteries don’t exist at all, I came across an FAQ that the right should find interesting.

The U.S. power grid consists of a huge number of interconnected transmission lines that connect a variety of generation sources to loads. The wind does not always blow, and the sun does not always shine, which creates additional variability and uncertainty (as nobody can perfectly forecast wind or solar output). But power grid operators have always had to deal with variability. Many forms of power generation can unexpectedly trip offline without notice and some only produce power at certain times. There is also uncertainty due to ever-changing loads (energy demand) that cannot be perfectly predicted.

The same online document added, “Grid operators use the interconnected power system to access other forms of generation when contingencies occur and continually turn generators on and off when needed to meet the overall grid demand. Integrating variable renewable power to the grid does not change how this process of balancing electricity supply and demand works.”

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On clean energy, too many Republicans appear to forget that batteries exist (Original Post) LetMyPeopleVote Aug 2 OP

Batteries are particularly useful for diurnal (day/night) leveling OKIsItJustMe Aug 2 #1

Show me an off-grid home solar setup with batteries that doesn't require a backup generator. hunter Aug 2 #2

Nature figured this out long, long ago OKIsItJustMe Aug 2 #6

Unfortunately, people who believe that solar and wind are sustainable don't know either the moral or environmental... NNadir Aug 2 #3

This message was self-deleted by its author LetMyPeopleVote Aug 2 #4

Apparently Trump is in the dark over this because he despises Wind Turbines! 👇👇👇👇👇👇 LetMyPeopleVote Aug 2 #5

At the moment 29% of my power is coming from batteries... hunter Aug 2 #7

OKIsItJustMe

(21,640 posts)

1. Batteries are particularly useful for diurnal (day/night) leveling

Reply to LetMyPeopleVote (Original post)

Sat Aug 2, 2025, 02:25 PM

Aug 2

They are not really good at “Energy Droughts.”

https://www.pnnl.gov/news-media/energy-droughts-wind-and-solar-can-last-nearly-week-research-shows

December 11, 2023 | News Release
“Energy Droughts” in Wind and Solar Can Last Nearly a Week, Research Shows
Understanding the risk of compound energy droughts—times when the sun doesn’t shine and the wind doesn’t blow—will help grid planners understand where energy storage is needed most

Solar and wind power may be free, renewable fuels, but they also depend on natural processes that humans cannot control. It’s one thing to acknowledge the risks that come with renewable energy: the sun doesn’t always shine and the wind doesn’t always blow, but what happens when the grid loses both of these energy sources at the same time?

This phenomenon is known as a compound energy drought. In a new paper, researchers at Pacific Northwest National Laboratory (PNNL) found that in some parts of the country, these energy droughts can last nearly a week.

“When we have a completely decarbonized grid and depend heavily on solar and wind, energy droughts could have huge amounts of impact on the grid,” said Cameron Bracken, an Earth scientist at PNNL and lead author on the paper. Grid operators need to know when energy droughts will occur so they can prepare to pull energy from different sources. On top of that, understanding where, when, and for how long energy droughts occur will help experts manage grid-level battery systems that can store enough electricity to deploy during times when energy is needed most.

The team published the findings October 31 in the journal Renewable Energy and will be presenting at this week’s annual meeting of the American Geophysical Union.

…

Here in “Upstate” New York, PV solar output in the Winter is less than half what it is in the Summer. Between fewer hours of daylight and less intensity, there’s too little solar energy hitting the ground (that’s why it gets cold outside.) It’s these seasonal fluctuations which concern me more than the diurnal cycles. If we’re heating buildings with electricity, and there’s less available when we need it most, that’s a problem.

Another thing which concerns me about the use of Lithium-ion batteries for leveling diurnal fluctuations is their “cycle life.” A solar panel which may last 3 decades or more, might need to have its battery backup replaced several times.

https://cmbatteries.com/complete-guide-to-lithium-battery-shelf-life-cycle-life-and-calendar-life/#what-is-the-cycle-life-of-lithium-ion-battery

…

What is the Cycle Life of Lithium-ion Battery?
The cycle life of a lithium-ion battery refers to the number of charge and discharge cycles it can undergo before its capacity declines to a specified percentage of its original capacity, often set at 80%. This metric is particularly important for applications where the battery is frequently cycled, such as in electric vehicles, power tools, and energy storage systems.

A complete cycle occurs when a battery is fully charged and then discharged. Even partial cycles (charging or discharging only partially) contribute to the overall cycle count. As the battery ages, these chemical reactions cause wear and tear on the electrodes and electrolyte, leading to a gradual decrease in the battery’s energy capacity in our article “Understanding the Life Cycle of Lithium-Ion Batteries”.

…

hunter

(39,810 posts)

2. Show me an off-grid home solar setup with batteries that doesn't require a backup generator.

Reply to LetMyPeopleVote (Original post)

Sat Aug 2, 2025, 03:24 PM

Aug 2

How much does it cost?

The problem with batteries are the same at any scale, from a little cabin in the wilderness to a large regional grid.

Large battery systems are typically used to carry the load when solar and wind power drops out for however long it takes to get gas power plants up. The capacity of these battery systems is typically measured in minutes or hours, not days or weeks.

The physical mass of batteries that would be required to support a 100% solar and wind powered electric grid is entirely ludicrous.

For actual real world data you can explore the operation of California's gas/solar/wind hybrid electric grid, including batteries, starting here:

https://www.caiso.com/todays-outlook/supply

As I write this 84% of the energy I'm using is renewable. Gas power plants are being used for system stability.

Actually, if I consider only my local neighborhood, my electricity is probably 100% solar. Yes, my neighborhood exports electricity when the sun is shining. As the sun goes down gas power plants pick up most of the load. Batteries are used to smooth this transition, not to carry the load for the entire night.

OKIsItJustMe

(21,640 posts)

6. Nature figured this out long, long ago

Reply to hunter (Reply #2)

Sat Aug 2, 2025, 09:19 PM

Aug 2

Most of nature stores energy chemically in the form of sugars, starches, fats, oils… After your body digests your food, it stores that energy as sugars, fats… it uses this stored energy to power your muscles, your brain &c.

Nature can (and does) make electric storage batteries. An electric eel has a series of natural batteries that it uses to deliver a powerful electric shock, but it doesn’t use batteries to swim around.

Green plants use solar power to almost magically transform CO₂ & H₂O into a wide variety of more complex molecules. Naturally, they first need to break down the water and carbon dioxide, producing carbon, hydrogen and oxygen. From there, they release the oxygen, and use the carbon and hydrogen build sugars, fats, oils… which they can later break down (using atmospheric oxygen) to recover energy at night or during the long, dark Winter.

We could do the same

Some years ago, it struck me that “deciduous” trees invest a great deal to produce “leaves" (solar powered chemical processing facilities) which they discard after a few months (after recovering valuable resources from them, causing them to change color and dry out.) They apparently found this to be a more profitable way to live rather than to attempt to maintain them through the dark and frozen Winter (as “evergreens” do.)

NNadir

(36,410 posts)

3. Unfortunately, people who believe that solar and wind are sustainable don't know either the moral or environmental...

Reply to LetMyPeopleVote (Original post)

Sat Aug 2, 2025, 05:13 PM

Aug 2

...or material costs of batteries.

I discussed the case here: The Number of Tesla Powerwalls Required That Would Address the Current German Dunkleflaute Event.

We have people here who still worship the fascist Elon Musk and his slave holding company Tesla, who are always carrying on happily about the industrial installation of Tesla Powerwalls®.

Here are the specifications of Tesla Powerwalls®: Specifications of Powerwalls®.

It is claimed they have a useable capacity of 13.5 kWh after being charged with 14 kWh of electricity, presumably at 25°C, with a putative thermodynamic efficiency - should you choose to believe it - of 96%. The maximum continuous power output is said to be 5 kW. The power requirements to match the combined coal and gas average continuous power of combined German coal and gas over the last 30 days, 44.4 GW would require 8,880,000 million Powerwalls®, to cover each day of Dunkelflaute; for 30 days, given that the wind wasn't blowing that much over that period, 266,400,000 Powerwalls®.

The specifications say that each Powerwall® weighs 114 kg, meaning that 30,369,600,000 kg of Powerwalls® would be required just for Germany.

According to Forbes, 15% of the weight of a Tesla Powerwall is cobalt, mined by Elon's happy Congolese slaves, meaning that the happy Congolese cobalt slaves would be required to mine and isolate 4,555,400 metric tons of cobalt to make Powerwalls® to cover this instance of Dunkleflaute with batteries.

This is 31.63 times as large as the world production of cobalt in 2021 according to the US Geological Survey

I'm sorry!!! I forgot to use "percent talk!" The demand for cobalt to cover month long Dunkleflaute in Germany observed in Nov-Dec 2022 would be 3163% the demand for all the world cobalt supply in 2021.

The need for redundancy in energy systems - and let's be clear, in Germany the redundant plants are powered by coal - is neither cheap, clean, sustainable, or morally acceptable.

The reactionary approach to making our energy supplies dependent on the weather - a practice abandoned in the 19th and early 20th century for a reason - and precisely the point we have destabilized the weather is popular, but just plain wrong.