To me, to be patriotic one has to be moral and ethical. And I do love this country and served it in uniform (peace time). And because I love this country, I feel it is my patriotic duty to try and make it better for everyone.

are smart, good looking people.

I identify with scientists, I suppose, but that group will often slaughter you for errors -- e.g., what happened to Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons after their "cold fusion" announcement in 1989.

Still, it's the IDEAS that matter most to me. Not some unquestioned duty to particular places and people when I don't like what they represent or their ideas.

But I don't love blindly.

Honestly curious. Not trying to start something. Also, what is it that makes you love America more than any other country other than the fact that you were probably born here. Thanks

We were founded on the idea of representative democracy at a time when that was somewhat rare in the world. We didn't live up to our high ideals at first (actually, we still don't), but we've mostly moved in the right direction since our founding.

We aren't aristocratic. We aren't homogeneous. Our country was founded to be more of an idea than a place. Our ancestors come from all over the world, and we all blend together into something new and evolving.

We value individual rights and our Constitution includes specific protections for things like free speech and freedom of (and from) religion.

We aren't all about blood and soil, although some would like for us to be. We have vibrant communties of new Americans even in states like mine, and they add immensely to the fabric of our nation.

Other countries are great, too. (But not all of them.)

I love this country. We aren't perfect, but we still have great potential.

I agree with your points.

I used to believe those things. I no longer do.

We are "allowed" to have the freedoms you describe in order to keep a viable working class for big corporations. We live in a military-industrial complex that has now extended it's reach into our police force.
The continued racism in this country is little to no better now than it was 50 years ago. Nor is the acceptance of those who are of differing sexual ideals.

I reserve the word love for my blood relatives and my wife. I respect the people in this country who have not been led down the path of cultism by a narcissistic wanna-be dictator.

AND, I respect your opinions. I'm sure we could sit down over coffee or a beer and enjoy a good chat.

very well written, sums up my feelings perfectly.

a troublesome thing. More harm done than good IMO.

So many crimes committed in the name of nationalism. (used to be tribalism before nation-states came into being.)

it's (sometimes) the "my country right or wrong" mentality. Or the RWers often referring to themselves as "patriots".

I also have a kind of jaundiced view of flag waving, saluting etc.

between nationalism and patriotism.

To me, patriotism simply means that I love and accept the lsrger community that is my country, the people, values, and traditions. It is not a fanatical love and I can criticize it and work with others toward improvements.

Nationism has racist and tribalistic undertones of superiority over other nations and some people within the nation.

For example, I see myself more as a Michigander than I do an American.

During the above mentioned timeframe, most identified with their state before they did nation.

Federalism is breaking down, with a confederation mentality replacing it.

Our kids and Grand kids are the ones I'M fighting for!!!

I understand your point, however. Like all people who were born here, we are here by a circumstance we had no control over. I gave up on the idea of pledging allegiance long ago, and I hold no special reverence for a poem with racist overtones set to the music of an old, British drinking song.




If I could leave, I would think long and hard about doing so. I actually looked into emigrating to New Zealand after Trumpy won the ‘16 election, and if I ever won the lottery, the South Island would be my first choice. I found that I was too old and since I didn’t have a skill in high enough demand, moving there without a lot of money is an impossibility.

Having said that, I agree it is the right thing to do to try and improve this country for everyone, but the deck is seriously stacked against the popular will and the people who did the stacking have absolutely ZERO interest in allowing any significant changes to happen.

The other side does not believe in Democracy, full stop. They are hell bent on stifling the will of the majority of Americans and they are succeeding.

Even the part about New Zealand being my top choice to move if we ever get too far gone.

Absolutely 100% spot on.

Are you my long lost bud from High School?

LOL.

since childhood is a Kiwi. We saw each other often enough considering the distance in Europe and her visiting me here. In between we wrote and phoned a lot.

Turns out, she’s a conspiracy Trumper! I was stunned though in retrospect there were signs.

They’re everywhere!

I feel more connected to the city, state or region that I live in than the country as a whole. I have felt more at home in certain European countries than I have in certain areas of this country.

I have never felt terribly patriotic, but it does annoy me when other nationalities see us as a monolith.

I have dual US and Mexico citizenship. I love Mexico, I just like the US . I love the people of Mexico, I like very few people in the US. I love the authentic gratitude the locals in my town in Sonora, Mex show when I take part in monthly home building. I dislike the entitlement and whatever attitude when I partake in home remodeling for those in need in California. Hell, even the NARCOS get their hands dirty and build parks, playgrounds, and houses in poverty stricken areas of my town…more helpful than my corrupt local government in California. I like the can do attitude of our local Mexican government, not the empty promises of my local California politicians. I can only speak of Sonora, Mexico, other parts south have more unique problems. If I had to choose it would be Mexico in a heartbeat 🇲🇽.

Me encanta Espana. Pero no se si quisiera a vivir alli.

Just as modern as the U.S. (occasionally moreso), friendly, mostly down-to-earth, funloving and family-loving people in general, wonderful museums and historic sites, varied geography, the FOOD, and I could go on. I like living here, and I liked living there.

Also, Go Bills.

Back in the Love It or Leave It 70's, I feared I would be found out and stripped from my family. I was young and the love it or leave it-ers appeared so angry.

Then and now my association with this country is simply that I was born here. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm glad I wasn't born in Iraq, Afghanistan or Pakistan.

I'm also glad I wasn't born in Mississippi.

I later found out my dad was a member of the White Citizens' Council in MS, so my people helped cause the Blues that needed to be expressed there in the Delta. (Credit due?)

Fortunately, we moved to a town in California when I was two. Unfortunately, that town was Bakersfield. Fortunately, I left Bakersfield at 21, and have been living in San Francisco for the last 40 years.


(My dad is dead now, but he and my live mother continued to be white supremacists, and just had to switch from Dixiecrat to Republican when the time came.)

I agree.

I never understood the over the top patriotism that a lot of people in America practice, it borders on idolatry and jingoism…and most of the people who do it are fake patriots……do I cheer for our athletes in the Olympics, yes…,do I support the troops in harms way, yes…but honestly, I can’t stand half the people who live here…I agree with you, I was born here and I am not going anywhere….and the crap that I don’t like, I try to make it better

patriotism thing. Why do people need to put flags up? In case they forget what country they're in? I guess "patriotism" to me means rooting for the US team in the World Cup or the Olympics, but beyond that I really don't understand what it means.


Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colorful rag is unfurled

(Rush Territories)

I just don’t love a lot of people that don’t love it the way I do.

and don't want anyone telling them they are.

Very much agree!!

Actually, if memory serves, that quote is totally incorrect.

I think it’s a botched version of a quote that is not just a rigid “right-or-wrong” but includes a conditional. “… and if wrong, to be made right.”

And i'm a proud American with many patriotic friends & family.
Only ONE person.
And he's less of an American than most other people

to love your country ?

I've thought about where I might go, and everyplace has its problems---language barriers, distance from family, economic or political unrest, or they just don't take people the age of me and my husband. So, like you, I'll do what I can, and I'll go down swinging if it comes to that.

FWIW, these were our possibilities post 2016 and prior to the pandemic:

Ireland--good tech climate, but the weather and cost of living were a deterrent
Uruguay--decent climate, language barrier, far from family
Costa Rica--good weather, lots of expats, language barrier
Fiji--fabulous weather except for cyclones, some political instability, far from family
One of the Caribbean nations--same as Fiji for weather
And the surprise entry--Botswana--most stable nation in Africa, booming tech economy, decent weather, but surrounded by unstable nations and very far from family.

Husband doesn't speak Spanish but I have enough tucked away that I could pick it up very quickly. He has been to Fiji and several of the Caribbean countries as a tagalong with a former partner who was a dive enthusiast (don't ask). He is also a tech lord and could probably find IT employment easily in an English speaking country. Age is a deterrent however.

Why not Canada? Two things. Age restrictions, for one, although a friend who lives in Alberta says she would sponsor us. Otherwise most of it is too cold for too long, and I just don't do winter. I would consider Vancouver Island (not the city) though.

one happy island, that is out of the hurricane zone....

Real flesh and blood living things matter, not inanimate icons.

Watch this for context...

Think it's so-so

We are left to imagine what life would be like if he were still here advocating peace.

That our purpose in life is to serve your fellow man. I completely agree.

...In the early 1900s, somewhere around 1907, my four grandparents came here from Russia. What the
U.S.A. was then, it isn't now. Unlimited immigration to anyone who could read, (maybe different in early
1900s, jobs often available to immigrants, communities with immigrants that only spoke the original
language, and immigrants and their children learned English....sometime quickly & sometime very slowly, (or not at all).....
.....Communities were different, and of course there were differences in communication. It is hard to
imagine what it was like in 1907, but the four of them took this incredible chance of moving permanently to the U.S.A. ( Like a 7000 mile move or more..)

The U.S.A. had a reputation of being open to all who wanted to come here and become citizens. . (of course that has changed completely) They managed and survived, & had children, and then their children had children..(I am one of those)..

...Some things have NOT changed. We have freedom of religion, speech, & other liberties too. We have
education for all up to the 12th grade. We have, if one looks, an incredibly beautiful country, and some
parts are very ugly too. We have a variety of geography unmatched by any country. You want island,
we got em, You want mountains, we got those too. Rivers & streams. Farmlands. Cities. (all sizes &
shapes) We still got people from all over coming here. Someone from Mauritius lives a few homes away,
(No, I didn't know where it was either)..Yes, the U.S.A. has changed, but some parts are as diverse as
we were one hundred twenty years ago.

...Yes, it is a strange history & wide variety of people. Who could have thought that those 13 original states would grow to be one of the worlds greatest nations, and one of the nations with incredible problems. A nation with 50 states, and diversity of people and geography unmatched in the world. What a place. Take a good look and you will see whatever you want to see.

I also recognise my ability to pass as a straight, white male has allowed me the privilege that has enabled me to survive here. Had I been born indigenous, I would be dead many times over, or come to think of it my mother would have died in labour with my elder brother, so I wouldn't have been born at all.

My country was founded on enlightenment values and abominable racism both. I appreciate the former and hope to progress the humanist values that so appeal to me and detest the later and hope to mitigate the wrong that was done and continues to be done in this country.

I live on land stolen from the Kaurna people, I would like to give it back, but I have nowhere else to go. I am glad we no longer have ceremonies "Thanking" the indigenous people for the use of there land, it always seemed inauthentic to me. Thanking them for something that was stolen and continues to be denied them struck me as a kick in the guts.

We now see "Acknowledgements" whereby we acknowledge the indigenous people as custodians and traditional owners of the land. It strikes me as more realistic. Unfortunately we have a government, media and a large segment of the population that feels the polar opposite of myself and those who are like-minded.

Do I love my country, I don't know. I love the land, I love the people working it to make it a better, more fair place, but I can't love the people working against this. So I am torn.

I was brought up to revere the concept of the "Fair Go" and I still do. "ANZAC Day" to me is the commemoration of the senseless death in war not the "Victory Day" that it now seems to embody in the public mind. I despair, but I still hope.

You've said it all. Thanks.

Have a long list of things wonderful abut the U.S.

I don't love any country, it's always something.